TooMuchSexy.blog ‣ May 01, 2005 ‣ On Heterosexuality (blog, philosophy)

Can a male be “attracted” to another male without being gay, bisexual, questioning, etc.?

Can a female be “attracted” to another female without being gay, bisexual, questioning, etc.?

Attract is defined as: to arouse or compel the interest, admiration, or attention of; direct toward itself or oneself by means of some psychological power or physical attributes.

What qualities constitute one as being heterosexual? Why is attraction synonymous with physical/sexual desire? Can one be heterosexual and be attracted to someone of the same sex?

(Questions stolen from Kristine’s Xanga, thanks for the insightful questions Kris!)

Nate ‧ Posted 3 years, 2 months, 3 weeks, 3 days, 2 hours, 15 minutes ago

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Comments

1. [Cue teenage flame war]

   — Arthur 

1. Well, I’m definitely physically attracted to men all the time, and have hooked up with men in college, but I’m definitely not bi or heterosexual, because the idea of actually having sex with a man is pretty, well, not only of no interest to me, but rather icky. So Etan, if you’re straight but you’ve got crushes on boys, I think it’s A-OK to keep calling yourself straight.

   — Ari 

1. Here’s a good couple of questions for you and Kristine:

   Should someone whose mind is capable of understanding the subtle variations in types of attraction have any trouble understanding the subtle gradations between gay, bisexual, and heterosexual?

   Why would someone who doesn’t want to limit the word attraction to the sexual type feel the need to assign a broadly defined label to herself?

   — Mister Swill 

1. P. S.  Ari, must you visit everyone’s blog to preach about why you don’t eat meat?
   

   — Mister Swill 

1. I think mister swill just outed ari, lol. Anyhow to answer the question, being attracted to someone is sexual. Acknowledging the physical attractiveness of someone is not sexual i.e she has pretty eyes or he has nice hands, etc.

   I consider someone gay that has sexual relations with the same sex more than once. Does kissing count? hmmm if its a romantic kiss then yes. I have been told by some men that they have sex but not relationships with men and they are still gay to me. If someone practices these acts and decide to also have relations with the opposite sex then that man or woman should be notified that they are having relations with a gay person.

   — anisoptera 

1. My perspective on this and that shared by many of my friends (at least in UNITY), is that you are what you identify as.

   If you enjoy sex with men but identify as heterosexual then you are heterosexual. If you enjoy sex with both men and women but moreso with women, you can still be bisexual or gay. What matters is what you consider yourself to be.

   — Nate 

1. That is an intersting way of looking at it etan. Would you be offended if i questioned your sexual preference? I am a heterosexual female by the way and do not have or “enjoy” sex with women.

   — anisoptera 

1. I wouldn’t be offended as I believe that being heterosexual is not any better or worse than being homosexual.

   — Nate 

1. I don’t think I have ever told anyone this but when I was a child, by age not mentality, on two occasions I grinded with girls. I don’t know why nor do i recall initiating it but i did it. As an adult I have kissed a girl once at a party and cause we were playing quarters and i was instructed to do so.

   Anyhow, i use to think that it really didn’t matter but at the same time the visual picture of it made me feel uncomfortable. I would never do anything like that again.

   the end

   — anisoptera 

1. If a man enjoys sex with men but identifies himself as heterosexual - then he IS heterosexual?

   This is do not understand. I personally believe that love is love is love. I like the idea of people being in loving relationships… probably because of the severe abuse I’ve experienced in my life… but I think a man loving a man or a woman loving a woman or whatever…. it’s all great

   However - if we’re gonna use ‘labels’ - they ARE there for a reason aren’t they? To describe a certain pattern of behaviour, I thought. For example - if a man only has and enjoys sex with other men but he calls himself heterosexual - it doesn’t make sense to me. HOW are his actions (and desires) ‘heterosexual’ as it would be stated in the dictionary, for example?

   I am unsure if I’m making much sense. I’m just very confused. It seems to me a lie to call yourself ‘heterosexual’ if you only have sex with and are only attracted to other men.

   I mean what’s the problem with either using no label or if you want to use one - just say ‘I am homosexual’ ??

   I guess I consider myself bisexual. I am physically attracted to both men and women - and probably more physically attracted to women than I am to men. *However* I have never ‘done anything’ with a woman and I am married and believe in monogamy so I will never do anything with a woman.

   Some people would say this makes me ‘heterosexual’ but I don’t believe so.

   If I were not married and I fell in love with a woman I would gladly pursue a relationship if we both wanted it.

   — blanket_of_ash 

1. Ani, I’m curious to know why the mental image of these events made you feel uncomfortable.

   Perhaps it is simply because you’re not attracted to females and therefore kissing a woman or grinding against another girl feels strange.  In that case, don’t worry.  Everyone experiments.  You found out that females aren’t your bag.

   Or maybe it’s because you felt coerced into doing those things.  If that’s so, your discomfort is understandable.  If someone does something that crosses your boundaries, you have every right to stop it.  Nobody should expect you to do anything you don’t feel comfortable doing.

   On the other hand, perhaps it makes you feel uncomfortable because you have been taught that homosexuality is evil and sinful, or even that it’s simply weird and gross.  Maybe you’ve grown up in an area that isn’t blessed with the free flow of ideas, and outdated opinions are still ingrained in people’s minds.  But maybe you find yourself questioning the absurd ideas that those around you simply accept as fact.  And maybe there are certain feelings you have that you’ve been burying deep inside yourself and covering up with shame because you know from the people around you that those feelings are wrong.  Then again, maybe those people are the ones who are wrong.

   Something to chew on.

   — Mister Swill 

1. mister swill I believe you came up with about every scenario that could be! (smile)

   I was not taught that homosexuality was wrong growing up. Not suppressing any homosexual feelings either. This idea that anything goes sexually is dangerous to our minds and souls. Sex is not just about pleasure, that is a perk. Sex is about much more than that and there is evidence to support this belief, just look at all the problems men and women have because of that ‘sex is for my sexual gratification’ attitude (and behavior)- disease, broken hearts, children without fathers, abortions, etc.

   Sex is serious stuff.

   — anisoptera 

1. I am looking at things from a counseling point of view when I made the comment about someone being what they identify as but I also can see it just as a respect situation.

   It is not my job to label you. If you identify as heterosexual than I am going to consider you as such even if you are exhibiting “homosexual” behavior. The same thing applies to people who exhibit “bisexual” and “heterosexual” behavior. I don’t determine your sexuality, you do such yourself.

   There is a huge community of men who have relations with other men but consider themselves heterosexual, it is not my job to say they are homosexual and when speaking with them I want to call them what they are comfortable being called.

   I hope that clarifies things a bit.

   — Nate 

1. Anisoptera, I’m curious about your quotes around “‘enjoy’ sex with women.” You clearly meant to imply something there, but what exactly?  That enjoyment, while definitely present, is less important than what sex is really about (and I can only assume that you mean procreation here, but please correct me if I’m wrong…)?

   You say “If someone practices these acts and decide to also have relations with the opposite sex then that man or woman should be notified that they are having relations with a gay person.” Wow.  I mean, wow.  The Megan’s law of homosexuality.  I’m not sure I understand the reasoning behind this point.

   You know what this all makes me think of?  Racial classifcation.  It’s not a new analogy, but an apt one nonetheless.  If you make out with one man, have intercourse with another man, and spend the rest of your life sleeping with women, are you gay or straight?  If your mother’s mother is from Africa, your mother’s father is white, your father’s mother was born here, but she’s surprisingly tan, and your father’s father is English, are you black, or are you white?  (Stemming, of course, from the much more important question, are you a slave, or are you free?) When I was little, black kids, at first surprised by my dark-skinned mom (I being as pale as my dad), used to inform me that, skin color notwithstanding, I was definitely black.  This was a great surprise to me, and it still is when it happens to me now. 

   My point?  Sometimes it’s simple, sometimes it isn’t.  Sure, the labels have a general meaning, but they don’t always fit.  The self-defining we’re talking about here is within limits, I think.  If we’re going to take these words to mean anything at all, they have to refer to the primary preference of the person in question, as defined by that person.

   Let’s say some guy only likes women, heck, let’s say he marries one, but he commits some terrible crime and goes off to prison for a couple years with no conjugal visits.  Things happen…and he is surprised to find that he enjoys the company of other men!  Or perhaps he doesn’t.  Either way, he gets out of prison, goes back to his wife, and they live happily ever after.

   is he gay?  I don’t know!  It’s none of my business!

   And finally, there’s plenty of disease and broken hearts to go around without blaming sex for them.  Most things in life have possible negative consequences - to believe that these consequences represent a wrong turn down the path is one thing, to call them evidence of the “intent” of the actions is another.  Diseases are no more proof of the immorality of sex for its own sake than obesity is proof that we should never eat anything but tofu and spinach.

   — Arthur 

1. That idealogy arthur is also probably the same one that blacks used to pass as white. All this nonsense about what you consider yourself to be is ridiculous. Sexual preference and race are two totally different situations and I will treat them as such. I suspect that is a clever attempt to reap the benefits of being a heterosexual and still practice homosexuality.

   I would want to know if that is what i was dealing with. I also know that there are plenty of men who sleep with women and pretend to be straight but still sleep with men “on the side”. what a deceitful practice. How you can actually deny that a SEXUALLY TRANSMITTED disease is proof is completely insane. Stop being a slave to pleasure. It’s ugly.

   Once again, sex is serious not a toy.

   — anisoptera 

1. etan I am saddened by that blatant attempt to escape social judgment by redefining words.

   One way or another the truth always comes to light.

   — anisoptera 

1. hmmmmm

   I find it a bit ridiculous to call a guy ‘heterosexual’ if you know he only has it off with guys.

   It’s just stupid. If they guy’s in denial fine - you don’t need to push the issue or something -but to play along and ‘pretend’ he is heterosexual (in the actual MEANING of the word) just seems like overly PC bullshit to me.

   People are screwed up enough in the world without us all allowing ourselves to play these silly make-believe games.

   If you’re gay - so what. Get the hell over it.

   — blanket_of_ash 

1. okay - so if you are a man who only enjoys having sex with other *men* and then you call yourself heterosexual;

   het·er·o·sex·u·al (ht-r-sksh-l)
   adj.

   Sexually oriented to persons of the opposite sex.

   n.

   A heterosexual person.

   …does that actually MAKE you heterosexual?

   Is this not a misnomer??

   By your logic, an 80 year old man can say he is 18 years old and that makes it true and right.

   It’s actually called a LIE in my book. Or perhaps the man is crazy and talking nonsense….

   but if you’re saying that shit in the *knowledge* you are misrepresenting something then it IS a lie.

   — blanket_of_ash 

1. ani, by your own rules I can define you as homosexual. You have had sexual relations with females more than once, you’ve kissed and grinded with other girls. You are more comfortable with being considered heterosexual so I will continue to call you such.

   When discussing issues of health and safety with people it is best to allow them to label themselves. I want them to be as comfortable as they can be and it is not my job to decide their sexual orientation. Many former inmates continue having male-to-male sexual relations but consider themselves heterosexual, why should I be able to decide that they are not? What makes me lord emperor of labels?

   Its all about keeping others comfortable. You may consider it lying but I consider it respect. There is a huge stigma associated with homosexuality. I don’t feel it is a deserved stigma, I think heterosexism is awful. Regardless, it is my belief that you should be able to decide your own sexual orientation. If you are closeted and more comfortable being called heterosexual than I will call you such. I am not judging people based on their actions.

   Heterosexism requires us to consider homosexuality abnormal. When I meet someone it is not my job to assume their sexuality. I try not to immediatly assume another person is straight or gay or bisexual. I fail sometimes as I am sure even the best of us do, but I try. I am not about assumptions and while you guys may feel that view is faulted, I feel it is the best outlook on sexual preference.

   — Nate 

1. blanket_of_ash, I think that the difference we’re talking about here is a difference of usage.  As far as I can tell, you and anisoptera are defining these terms in terms of behavior - i.e. what a person physically does.  While this is certainly valid in many contexts, consider the very common case of the gay man who spends his whole life with women because he’s afraid to come out.  In some of these cases, the relationship ends years later, because the man is finally to make that statement.

   In fact, the whole process of “coming out” implies that these terms are a matter of preference, not of behavior.  I mean, we even call them “sexual preference,” (which, I agree, is somewhat of a misnomer, because it implies that relationships in this context are founded only on sex, which is clearly incorrect….)

   An 80-year-old man cannot say he is 18 years old because that’s a matter of fact.  He can, however, say he really prefers dancing to walking with his cane, even if he doesn’t dance anymore, and all he does is walk with his cane.  I think that’s the more appropriate analogy.

   Sexual preference is a matter of preference.  I mean, that’s practically a truism - it’s not redefining words.

   Anisoptera, I agree with you in that you do have some entitlement to know where your partner has been, and what he or she has been doing.  And yes, it IS deceitful to pretend to your partner that you’re being faithful and sleep with other people on the side.  This would be true regardless of orientation or gender.

   I made my analogy to obesity for a reason.  I could continue - is lung cancer proof that smoking is immoral?  Is diabetes proof that sugar is evil?  Is carpal tunnel syndrome proof that computers are the devil’s tools?  No, no, and no. How is this situation any different? 

   Anisoptera, you’re making a lot of statements that seem to dwell on the face of a very well-developed ideology - there’s a lot going on behind the things you say.  I feel as if I’m talking to the ideology, rather than the person, as you leave many stones unturned.

   I’m not sure what you meant by the statement about passing as white, or the statements I mentioned in my last comment.  However, as I have made every effort to respect your opinions and beliefs without attacking you, I can only ask that you do the same, and please refrain from calling me things like a “slave to pleasure” and “ugly,” when, in truth, you know nothing about my life. 

   I would like to know what position you’re arguing from.  Do you mean to imply that sex should only be for procreation, or that it can be enjoyed but only within the context of marriage, or only witin a monogamous relationship, or only within a heterosexual one?

   — Arthur 

1. The whole post is gay.

   — Jon 

1. How can a post have sexual preference?

   — Nate 

1. lol

   I used to be rather staunch about all this stuff too, believe it or not.

   Then one day I decided to get over myself. Lots of people (heterosexuals and homosexuals included) believe ‘bisexual’ people to be dirty and ‘opportunist’ even.

   Who cares?

   It seems to me all this angst over sexuality is quite adolescent.

   I don’t know… perhaps it is different here in New Zealand, but being gay or whatever is not such a big deal.

   On a related note, we are also the first place in the world to have a transexual mayor. This mayor named Georgina Beyer ( http://www.georginabeyer.com/ ) is very respected in our country. I think it is a matter of **confidence** - if you see yourself as a victim, you will always be victimised. You will be in situations and instead of ignoring them or laughing them off, you will take it to heart and be really **hurt** by it - and this will happen again and again and feed into your victim mentality.

   This is one of the reasons why I have learned to laugh when people call me ‘crazy’ or whatever.

   At one time I was VERY staunch about that - hated the ‘psycho’ word and calling people ‘nuts’ or ‘crazy’….

   I have severe mental illness, and I could easily go through life taking offense to SO much that happens in everyday life not to mention the media!

   However, to make it easier on myself I have decided to let it go and often I will ‘laugh along’ because I’ve realised peoples intent is NOT to harm me personally…. they might be making a joke or even an observation (blanket - you are crazy!). Sometimes I am crazy. So what?

   Gay people are gay.

   Oh well.

   I’m just saying - you can go through life fighting against things and making yourself feel worse and worse or else you can choose to let it go and just happily live your life as you want to live it.

   

   Just a different point of view anyhow.

   Take care,

   — blanket_of_ash 

1. blanket, not so different.  I agree with you completely.  I’m a “live and let live” kind of guy myself.  The only thing I would add to “live life as you want to live it” is “let other people have the right to do the same.”

   I don’t know how things are in New Zealand, but gay rights has been a very big topic in the US recently, so people tend to get a bit worked up about it.  It’s a fascinating country we live in.  Fascinating and terrifying…

   — Arthur 

1. Arthur you make some very good points in your 10:26am post. As for my being gay I was not a consenting adult when that happened does that count? anyway the scenario about a person “coming out” is something I had not considered and that is worth thinking about. Hmmmm (hamster turning wheel in my head)I suppose they could be considered gay to if the desire is burning in their soul. But if they don’t act on it then they are denying their flesh and deserve to be considered heterosexual if they so desire. So no they are not gay.That’s my final answer.

   Is lung cancer proof that smoking is immoral? that would be a good topic all by itself!! (sighs) Yes I would have to say it is. Should we not take into account the degree in which it is done? I mean eating is a necessity but too much is gluttony and causes obesity which causes other problems.

   Sugar and diabetes? I have heard that sugar is not the cause of diabetes. Have not done any research on that though. It’s in just about everything we eat not just sweets. Should also be consumed in moderation. What about sugar and teeth decay? Wouldn’t our teeth decay without brushing even if we ate no sugar at all? As Mr. Swill would say- “something to chew on”…

   I think I will go have a cigarette.

   — anisoptera 

1. wow. i didnt realize my entry resulted in such chaos lol i wish i had these reactions on my site :\ >sigh< nevertheless, great comments to an extremely controversial issue

   ps- i miss you already etan :(

   — kristine 

1. This whole conversation seems to me to stem from confusion, and that confusion comes from the very nature of our necessity of the usage of language, words, and labels to convey meaning. Words and labels are things of the mind, and also are just a map of the reality behind them. However sexual passion, even though there is a mental aspect to this emotional energy, is truely wordless because it comes from the heart of a person which come from the very center of the person’s own being.

   I myself have a boyfriend and a girlfriend, and they both know each other and accept me for who I am, and this knowing me is without words.  You can call me gay, bisexual, or heterosexual: I don’t care.  But I just call myself sexual. I also do not believe it is in anyone’s best interest to limit themselves or repress any universal energy that is generated from within one’s own true self.  Regulation of the flow of these energies and education of diseases is important, but I am definately in love with both my girlfriend and my boyfriend: I also know that they love me.

   End of story.

   — ThingOne 

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